Tongues not just Pentecostal
Anonymous (72.148.237.75) 1208494263|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I appreciate David's comments on tongues and would have to say that alot of "Pentecostals" have abused this gift so badly that it brings up discussions such as this. I have to add that the Pentecostals are not the only ones that have abused God's gift so have a lot of "Calvanist" that believe a man can live in utter sin and still be "born again" and going to heaven. Another example is how most denominations have brought peganism into the house of God with Easter (the fertility goddess) and Christmas and called them Christian holidays.
I have corresponded with David quite a lot and read some of his writtings and know him to be a man of God. Just because I disagree with some of the interpretation of Scripture and as you will read bring in some other Scripture to think about does no mean I do not respect his writtings. Let us have unity in the essentials, liberty in the non-essential and in everthing have love.
Let me begin with Joel 2:28, it is note worthy that the Complete Jewish Bibletranslation gives this segment of Scripture it's own chapter. It is also note worthy that man was the one to add chapter and verse numbers.
Joel 2:28-32 or 3:1-5 (CJB)-After this,this what? Peter answers this in Acts 2:15. I will pour out my Spirit on on humanity The Spirit of God did not dwell in man during Old Testament days than He does in New Testament Days. This is uncomprehendible to me because even the heathen is drawn to God by the Spirit John 16:7-16 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.KJV
Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, youryoung men will see visions and alo on male and females slaves in those days I will pour out my Spirit. I will show wonders in the sky and on earth blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and terrible Day of Adonai. At that time, the times just mentioned. The time form Acts 1:28 until Jesus second comming when He comes riding a white horse with the host of heaven with Him,whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved. For in Moun Zion and Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as Adonai has promised; among the survivors will be those whom Adonai has called.
This was quite lengthy text but is for those who will not look it up. Without digging into the exegisis of Joel, the question has to be asked, "Why did Peter give this reference?" Because many of those from other providences heard the Galileans speaking in their own dialect.
Here is something to think about The Bible says they "heard" and can. Why do we automatically presume this should be interpreted they were speaking instead of maybe the others just heard.
Allow me to bring a personal experience to the table. I do not prove the Bible by my experience, the Bible proves my experience. I would get to work about an hour or so before anyone else to pray for the day. I pray in tongues and I pray in understanding. One day a hispanic came to me speaking Spanish. I said "Yo no se, hablo espanial un pocito." That is "I don't know I speak little Spanish." He said no you don't I have heard you praying. Now I am here to tell you I have missionary friends in Mexico who will attest to my Spanish or should I say the masacre of the language. Could this have been me speaking Spanish? I know enough Spanish to have to say "no." Could God have had this man hear in Spanish what I was praying? I would have to say "yes." I did not know what I was praying but God made a way for the man to hear. Maybe it was none of my business what God wanted to tell that man all those mornings he heard me praying.
Lets us do a little back tracking here also. Mark records John the immerser saying "but He (Jesus)will immerse you in the Holy Spirit At the end of the book Mark records Jesus saying "As you go throughout the world, proclaim the Good News to al creation, Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who do trust,who will do these signs? Those that trust. in my name they will drive out demons, speak with new tongues, not be injured if they handle snakes or drink poison Remember to not test the Lord they God and heal the sick by laying hand on them."
Now as we go into the greatest history book of the early church, The Acts of the Apostles
As we read through this book of history we see many time others being immersed in Holy Spirit. At this point let me remind you of John14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.KJV
There seems to be two different dwellings of Holy Spirit in a person. One that guides and dwells with you and one that is in you.
There is a baptism of fire. A baptism or an immersion in fire. This is what is meant in Galatians 2:20, I am crucified with Christ… When one allows God to burn all the chaff all the desires of ones heart, all the fleshly lusts, all the pride and arrogance, etc. Then we can say with Paul I die daily, because it is a constant battle with our flesh. When we can honestly say we can drink the cup that Yeshua drank and empty ourselves of everything except God we will undestand this baptism of fire, but until then we will continue to contend with it because we have allowed our flesh to control us rather than our spirit.
The first time we see Holy Spirit poured out is on those seeking it at the Day of Pentecost. As we read further in the book of Acts we see in 4:31 after being filled with Holy Ghost they spoke the word of God with boldness. In chapter 8 what did Simon the sorcerer see? In chapter 9 Paul was filled with Holy Ghost and we know he spoke in tongues. In chapter 10 they knew they were filled because they spoke in tongues (vs 46). Chapter 11 it is stated that Holy Ghost had fallen on the Gentiles as it did them in the beginning which was demonstrated by Peter referring to the tongues. Chapter 19 tongues and prophesy followed the baptism of Holy Ghost
Tongues being a sign of salvation is not a biblical teaching. There where those that believed and then filled. Baptism has no saving merit. There were those that were filled with Holy Ghost and then baptized with water. The world can not receive Holy Ghost (John 14).
If I knew how to save this without posting I would, but for now I am very tired and will come back to discuss more. This is more than enough to chew on for a while. I will post comments about the book of Corinthians and also others. My objective is not to prove to you one way or the other. My objective is to have you seek God and all He has for you for the sole purpose of winning souls and making disciples. To me that is what life is all about. It is not about me and what I can achieve, but how I can humble myself for the Master's use.
Thank you David for this site and I will visit soon again as I am very busy with work and outreach. This is very time consuming but is much needed to help bring uninity to the body of Christ.